00:00:06:05 - 00:00:10:02 Andrew Welcome to Voluminous the letters of H.P. Lovecraft. 00:00:10:05 - 00:00:15:05 Sean In addition to classic works of gothic horror fiction, HPL wrote thousands of fascinating letters. 00:00:15:10 - 00:00:19:19 Andrew In each episode, we'll read and discuss one of them. I'm Andrew Leman. 00:00:19:19 - 00:00:23:19 Sean And I'm Sean Branney. Together, we run the H.P. Lovecraft Historical Society. 00:00:24:10 - 00:00:35:03 Andrew For today's letter, I chose one written on some sunday. We don't know which in the month of March of 1931. To Maurice Winter, Moe. 00:00:35:22 - 00:00:38:21 Sean Well, let's hear it. Okay. 00:00:39:00 - 00:01:10:14 Andrew Sunday, March 1931. Hail, o Mokrates, Prince of Light to suppose a man with the esthetic and philosophic vision of Hemmingway could say anything in the French pastry jargon of Thornton Wilder. Or that a sensitive perceiver like Marcel Proust, the one real novelist of the last decade or two could get anything at all over in the stereotypes, phrases and attitudes of the great tradition is to miss the whole point of the purpose and mode of functioning of language. 00:01:11:07 - 00:01:36:00 Andrew What any guy has to say is what's in him and every fresh combination of the guy and what he's got on his chest calls for a distinctly individual use of language. If anybody feels perfectly at home in some other bimbos, shiny coat and pants, that's a proof of one of two things. Either that he is by accident a dead ringer for the other guy, or that he hasn't a damn thing of his own to say. 00:01:36:18 - 00:02:00:06 Andrew Standardized manners and perspectives are natural in literature only during ages, so often analytical and unreflective that they can't depict human character or during other ages when the art of drawing individuals is more or less voluntarily passed up in favor of a sketchy art confined to rough universals. The latter set of conditions is what we tend to recognize as classicism. 00:02:00:21 - 00:02:36:24 Andrew The former is medievalism and it's Victorian flair back romanticism that is of these two positions romanticism and classicism. The first is a disease and a defect, whilst the latter is a discipline verging dangerously toward being opposed. In fact, classicism can't help being opposed in this age of psychological understanding and poignant perception of human differences. Honest depiction of life must be based on realism, no matter how much that realism may be suffused with the imaginative overtones derived from subjective attitudes toward reality and dream. 00:02:38:04 - 00:03:01:05 Andrew One thing I shake with the moderns on is the utter banality and bad artistry of plot in the conventional or fictional correspondence school sense. It doesn't take half an eye to show how blatantly false to life such cheap event juggling is. Indeed, I can't think of a thing more obviously, and essentially meaningless and hollow than this idle of the Dickenses and LeFanus. 00:03:01:05 - 00:03:27:17 Andrew The Walter B. Pitkin and Thomas H. Uzzels... to say nothing of that newspaper institute whose yellow dodger you lately sent me. A story ought to be a fragment of life. And just that life of the external form or of the imagination. But in any case, authentic and normally proportioned life without any artificial values and stark conceptions of events and motivations thrust into spoil the coherence of the fabric. 00:03:28:14 - 00:03:56:16 Andrew I often feel hellishly cheap when some vestige of my 19th century environment impels me to wind up a yarn of mine with a cheap little twist of event. Not that climax itself is inherently in artistic in its proper place, but it is in artistic when it coincides too badly with certain streams of events or volitional elements. Life is vague and tangled and groping and endless dissatisfied action which begins nowhere and ends. 00:03:56:16 - 00:04:27:12 Andrew Nowhere has no values and means only a dull pain of frustration. As all imagined goals recede farther and farther out of reach into the alluring, tantalizing sunset. The writer who catches this authentic outline and serves up episodes from it in poignant fashion, cannot dally with arranged to order coincidences and synthetic happy endings. He need not be cramped to grayness for the imaginative phenomena of escape are always legitimate material for artists built that way. 00:04:28:01 - 00:04:50:07 Andrew But when he tries to remodel the workings of the cosmos to suit an infantile idea of how events ought to dovetail together, he has no further right to call himself an artist. And so it goes. A vital writer doesn't have to be a roughneck, except when his theme dictates it. But he has to repudiate the silly notion that there is no place for roughneck ery. 00:04:51:00 - 00:05:30:21 Andrew He may as prompted by natural temperament, be the most delicate of ethereal fantasists or the most analytical and precise of intellectual psychologists. In both of these latter cases, departing as far as imaginable from the uncouth in manner, but he must at all times be one thing if he is to be anything at all, and that is himself. He must think of his subjects and creative urge first and of his language and rhetorical machinery only later on which you must fling off like a poisoned garment is the whole psychology of convention, verbal tradition, elegance, refinement, prim this pure ism, artificiality and kindred bullshit. 00:05:31:05 - 00:05:49:09 Andrew Let the refinement come when it wants to. Where natural art suggests it and makes it appropriate, but let it keep out of the way otherwise, lest it serve not as an asset and adornment, but as a grotesque sham and target for the jeers and healthy reactionary coarseness of sound masculine thinkers and artists. Grandpa Lo. 00:05:50:14 - 00:05:56:13 Sean So, Andrew, what led you to choose this letter? 00:05:57:08 - 00:06:07:09 Andrew I chose this letter for a few reasons. The thing that first caught my eye about it was that it is one of the first places I've encountered Lovecraft using such vulgar language. 00:06:08:09 - 00:06:10:17 Sean Oh, he is very saucy in this one. 00:06:10:20 - 00:06:35:01 Andrew And it really did strike me because normally his language, even in his letters, is so heightened and refined that to hear him, you know, say damn and bullshit and stuff was like, Wow. And especially using such vulgar language to express such heightened ideas. Absolutely. You know, you use heightened language to describe, you know, breakfast. And then he'll describe literary criticism and use words like this. 00:06:35:01 - 00:06:36:20 Andrew It just wow. It just sort of what. 00:06:36:20 - 00:06:46:17 Sean What gets his blood boiling? You know, it is it is pretty fascinating to to see what gets him fired up. And this is I'm with you that this is the first occasion where I have seen him stoop. 00:06:46:18 - 00:07:00:16 Andrew To such a level. Just willing to go there. Yeah. Oh, Howard. So that was what really caught my eye about it. And then the more I read it, you know, the more there's lots of other stuff in this letter, too, that I think is interesting and worth and worth talking about. 00:07:00:17 - 00:07:06:05 Sean Sure. Well, as we often do, maybe we should start with a little context for Maurice Moe. 00:07:06:10 - 00:07:25:15 Andrew Yes. Maurice Winter. Mo was an old friend of Lovecraft's from the amateur press days. He was a high school English teacher in Appleton, Wisconsin. And Moe introduced Lovecraft to several other of his friends, many of whom were his students in in Wisconsin. He was. 00:07:25:15 - 00:07:29:22 Sean Born in Appleton, Wisconsin, which is the birthplace of Harry. 00:07:29:22 - 00:07:32:04 Andrew Houdini. Yeah, Appleton was a. 00:07:32:07 - 00:07:33:24 Sean Hotbed of horror and mystery. 00:07:35:02 - 00:07:39:08 Andrew He was Moe was a few, like, about eight years older, I think, than Lovecraft. 00:07:40:02 - 00:08:02:01 Sean That sounds right there. Correspondence started in 1914, and they continued to exchange letters all the way until Lovecraft stuff. Yeah. One of the qualities about Moe as a correspondent that's different than a lot of the folks Lovecraft wrote with was also the fact that Mo's religion was a significant part of the two of them discussed theology quite a bit and. 00:08:02:03 - 00:08:25:19 Sean And Mo is a dyed in the wool theist standing in opposition to Lovecraft as a dyed in the wool atheist. And as such, things often go the two of them would would debate these topics ad nauseum. Right. Neither of them moving the other the slightest inch at all. But but they certainly exchanged a lot of ideas back and forth, each espousing their own opinions on the matter. 00:08:25:19 - 00:08:30:07 Andrew and remaining good friends all the while, which is a refreshing change of pace. 00:08:30:10 - 00:08:49:12 Sean Yeah, I haven't seen that for a century, but. Now, Moe was also, as it is in his role as a teacher, was an editor of Student Works. Right. It seemed like there were student literary publications that were going on throughout. Do you know anything about what the actual specific catalyst for this. 00:08:49:12 - 00:09:13:20 Andrew Letter, this this letter comes from selected letters. Volume three and it is absolutely abridged. This the version that we have clearly starts in the middle of a longer conversation that Derleth Wandrei decided was not worth printing. So I wish I knew what the first part of this letter says. I looked in the Brown Digital repository, and this letter is not among the ones you can read online. 00:09:14:02 - 00:09:21:05 Andrew So until we get a better collection of unabridged Moe letters, I just don't know what the first part of this letter says. I wish I did. 00:09:21:09 - 00:09:31:06 Sean Yeah, I wish I knew what the preceding letter had said. But yeah, from Mo too. Because like I said, to me, it really felt like something that had been said to Lovecraft really pushed his. 00:09:31:09 - 00:09:34:21 Andrew Yeah, we start to hot and heavy in the middle of an ongoing conversation, a. 00:09:34:21 - 00:09:35:22 Sean Feisty way, no doubt. 00:09:35:22 - 00:09:48:11 Andrew About it. Mo was also a poet himself and wrote a sort of text book or introduction called Doorways to Poetry, which I expect he foisted on his own English students in. 00:09:48:18 - 00:09:51:09 Sean In a great and enduring English teacher tradition. 00:09:51:09 - 00:09:58:15 Andrew Although apparently Mo was a very popular high school English teacher of one of the kind who, you know, Mr. Chips, beloved of his students, kind of guy. 00:09:58:16 - 00:10:21:04 Sean Well, yeah, you know, he's the one who was corresponding with Lovecraft. He's got to be he's got to be cooler than the missus. Myrtle, Down the hall, no doubt. One other thing I want to mention about Moe is, as we were talking about Lovecraft using some of his friends as inspirations for characters and stories. Oh, yeah, Moe shows up as the inspiration for the character of Joel Mountain in the Unnamable. 00:10:21:09 - 00:10:31:17 Sean That's another great way to earn yourself a place in literary history is by being friends with Lovecraft. So you're you're there in the correspondence and then he may he may put you into one of his stories. 00:10:31:18 - 00:10:35:05 Andrew And he's also part of the Kleicomolo and the GalloMo 00:10:35:05 - 00:10:36:15 Sean He's he's the MO. 00:10:36:16 - 00:10:42:21 Andrew He's the Mo and all of those things. So he he's he's also friends with Lovecraft's friends. And they all got together. 00:10:42:21 - 00:10:59:16 Sean Yeah. And he's got the easiest name. So yeah, it interested me seeing coming right out of the gate that the other authors that Lovecraft is choosing to illustrate his point because it's a great look at Lovecraft's perspective on authors that are contemporary with him. 00:11:00:03 - 00:11:27:02 Andrew This is this is one of the reasons that I apart from the shocking vocabulary, one of the reasons I liked this letter is that I was glad to be reminded that Lovecraft was writing in an age of literary giants on the 1920s and thirties. When he wrote this letter. I mean, was when Hemingway and Dreiser and Sinclair Lewis and Thornton Wilder and Gertrude Stein and all these major figures of 20th century literature were doing their thing. 00:11:27:02 - 00:11:31:16 Sean Sure. And some of them had not yet done the works for which we know them now. Yeah, but. 00:11:31:16 - 00:11:32:02 Andrew Which we all. 00:11:32:02 - 00:11:32:19 Sean Midcareer. 00:11:32:19 - 00:11:44:14 Andrew We all grew up, you know, studying in high school and college is like these were the titans of modern literature that we all grew up learning about into Lovecraft. These were the guys who, you know, that's the that's the sea he was swimming in. 00:11:44:15 - 00:11:44:22 Sean Right. 00:11:44:22 - 00:12:07:01 Andrew And I was just glad to be reminded of that because it's it's something that it's easy to forget and overlook. I mean, I personally haven't had a chance to read a novel in a long time, and it's clearly Lovecraft read voraciously. And he knew all these people because he read them. And that's one of the things I like about this letter's just stopping to reflect the the world in which Lovecraft was living. 00:12:07:06 - 00:12:32:07 Sean Sure. And he spends a lot of time in the arena of weird literature, and I find it refreshing to see that he's also very well versed on the literature. That's not weird. And the mainstream literary works of his own time. And, you know, I was stunned back when we were working on the Zulia Bishop book to learn that Lovecraft was a fan of Oscar Wilde, which I never would have predicted. 00:12:32:07 - 00:12:37:02 Sean And it's it's really interesting to see how his literary tastes. 00:12:37:02 - 00:12:38:05 Andrew Yeah. And Proust, you know. 00:12:38:10 - 00:12:38:21 Sean Sure. 00:12:38:22 - 00:12:42:10 Andrew Declaring Proust as the one decent novelist of the last decade. 00:12:42:12 - 00:12:44:07 Sean Yeah that's that's bold That says. 00:12:44:09 - 00:12:57:15 Andrew Yeah, that's high praise And Proust had died and you know a lot of remembrance of things past had was published posthumously and I mean in search of lost time was his you know main work but man what a. 00:12:57:15 - 00:13:20:11 Sean Work. Yes it doesn't weigh in like 3000 pages. It's an enormous novel. And yeah, interesting to see that Lovecraft's a fan of it and he spends, you know, for literary criticism. His essay, Supernatural Horror and literature really walks you through all the weird stuff. But his point of view on the non weird stuff only kind of comes out in little dribs and drabs through conversations like this one. 00:13:20:19 - 00:13:33:06 Andrew And it's interesting to how when he's talking about that, then he does, you know, talk about human character and the portrayal of normal human life and stuff. And it's like stuff that he completely disregards in his own work. 00:13:33:12 - 00:13:34:11 Sean Or says he does or. 00:13:34:11 - 00:13:41:05 Andrew Says he does. It's obvious that, you know, he he does think about it a lot and has strong opinions about it. 00:13:41:05 - 00:13:41:10 Sean Oh. 00:13:41:17 - 00:13:49:17 Andrew Absolutely. Even though he chooses not to portray such things in weird fiction, in literature in general, he definitely gets it. 00:13:49:17 - 00:14:12:04 Sean Yeah. And I think he gives credit credence to a real artist who, you know, an artist has to say what an artist has to say. And Lovecraft as an artist wants to talk about atmosphere and mood. And and, you know, this sense of weird feeling. Well, Proust is obviously after an entirely different objective. And Lovecraft can give Proust full credit. 00:14:12:04 - 00:14:24:10 Sean Realizing that Proust's goals in writing his work are not the same as love. They're not trying to accomplish the same thing apart from each speaking in their own voice. Their own voice and true to themselves. 00:14:24:15 - 00:14:28:07 Andrew He then does go on, you know, in sort of the middle of this letter to talk about. 00:14:28:11 - 00:14:30:10 Sean How how. 00:14:30:10 - 00:14:43:10 Andrew All that contrasts with plot, the stuff that is taught as this is how you should write novels. And, you know, he cites specifically and one another reason this letter caught my eye is because the name of Thomas H. Ozel jumps out. 00:14:43:13 - 00:14:44:03 Sean Yes. 00:14:44:06 - 00:14:53:12 Andrew Which is a name that we encountered when we were working on the Delia Bishop book. And also because it's part of how Lovecraft made his own living, was coaching other people in how to write fiction. 00:14:53:13 - 00:14:56:01 Sean Right. He's basically a correspondence teacher. 00:14:56:02 - 00:15:03:10 Andrew Right. And he's, you know, railing against other correspondence teachers who he thinks are, you know, misleading. 00:15:03:10 - 00:15:05:00 Sean Thomas H Uzzels 00:15:05:19 - 00:15:13:17 Andrew a guy who wrote a book called The Technique of the Novel and made a good living as a, you know, writing coach to people like Zelia Bishop. 00:15:13:24 - 00:15:28:16 Sean But I did want to share with you I don't know if you ran into this, but in addition to writing his book about how to write books, yeah, Uzzels is not a household name. And dreams of being a an author. And I finally found the title of one of those books, and I find the title very telling. 00:15:28:16 - 00:15:34:22 Sean Oh, what is it? Grandy Jim? A novel of action, romance and history in Old Santa Fe. 00:15:35:09 - 00:15:43:17 Andrew Well, see, and that's why because what Uzzels was really trying to teach was not how to write, but how to write stuff that magazine editors will buy. 00:15:43:17 - 00:15:45:19 Sean Exactly how to write things that are sellable. 00:15:45:19 - 00:16:02:23 Andrew Right. And that's Lovecraft's beef is with people. And he also he cites Walter B Pitkin in the same in the same sentence. And I was I had never heard that name. And I went and looked it up. And Pitkin was very famous at that time. He wrote one of his most famous books was called Life Begins at 40. 00:16:03:02 - 00:16:31:10 Andrew But he was he was a journalism professor at Columbia. He was very well-known in the 1920s and thirties. A couple of his other books, one was called a Short Introduction to Human Stupidity, which is a great title, but he wrote The art and Business of story writing. He also wrote a book which may be the first book about how to write screenplays called The Art of Sound Pictures, which I was like, Oh, I got to read this book. 00:16:31:10 - 00:16:49:20 Andrew So I went to try to find it. It is hard to find at the moment. If you want a copy, you can go to eBay. And if you have $1,250, you can get a copy of the Art of Sound pictures. It's almost worth it because his coauthor on that book was William Marston, who was the creator of Wonder Woman. 00:16:50:07 - 00:16:51:16 Sean Oh, well, there you go. 00:16:51:16 - 00:16:55:10 Andrew There are a couple of. So Pitkin and Marston teamed up to run Worlds Collide. 00:16:55:11 - 00:16:56:19 Sean Yeah. What might be the first. 00:16:56:19 - 00:17:00:24 Andrew Book on screenwriting? And it was it is a tempting I've let it go 00:17:00:24 - 00:17:05:11 Sean but it is kind of shocked that you let it go. But I'm waiting for it to show up in the mail tomorrow. 00:17:05:11 - 00:17:12:17 Andrew Well, it might. Who knows? I might knuckle under. It's still available now. It's best offer status. So maybe I'll offer them 100 bucks. And then they say. 00:17:12:19 - 00:17:29:20 Sean Well, and for guys who who are who are writing texts about how to make money through writing, clearly none of them succeeded going wide by writing something that would sell millions of copies instead. Exactly. They're going for a thousand bucks on eBay. Rudyard Years after the fact for a single guy, right? 00:17:29:21 - 00:17:35:18 Andrew Lovecraft has historical societies named after him in the Walter B Pitkin Historical Society, as far as I know, is. 00:17:36:03 - 00:17:37:07 Sean Those guys aren't doing anything. 00:17:37:07 - 00:17:45:12 Andrew They are not doing anything. So Lovecraft didn't make any money in his lifetime, but his is the name that endures. And Thomas H. Uzzels has not so much. 00:17:45:12 - 00:18:13:20 Sean Except for you and I keep talking. So Lovecraft's ranting about the dreaded issue of plot. Yeah. And again, with the sort of contempt that he. I don't know, at least that I hear it when I read the letter. So does he practice what he preaches? Because there's some he makes sometimes very effective use of plot and often in most of his stories, plot really is, you know, a thing. 00:18:13:20 - 00:18:25:14 Sean And in fact, he often comes around to the italicized ending, you know, which when you're if you're gong to complain about stuff being contrived, cure the Lovecraftian final sentence that's in italics is like, Oh, Howard. 00:18:25:17 - 00:18:28:11 Andrew And in this letter he says, I hate myself when I do it. 00:18:29:02 - 00:18:30:01 Sean But I give doing what. 00:18:30:01 - 00:18:36:15 Andrew He does, keep doing it. And I think the reason he keeps doing it is because it works or it can work. 00:18:36:18 - 00:19:00:10 Sean I don't disagree in the least. It's sort of a cart and horse thing I jotted in my notes Aristotle, because in terms of storytelling, you know, if you get into whether we like stories that have a beginning, a middle and an end, right, because we're completely used to them, or is it some greater cosmic truth that just simply because how time works, you get a better story if it is. 00:19:00:11 - 00:19:02:19 Andrew Beginning inherently satisfying? 00:19:02:19 - 00:19:25:11 Sean Yeah, absolutely. It's inherently satisfying and we crave that at some level and you know, generally, I think in the most general terms of story, it's a story is a problem that has a resolution that's that's Aristotelian. There's may be a love story, it could be a comedy or whatever, but there's a problem and once it's all sorted out, you hit the finish line and you're done. 00:19:25:11 - 00:19:28:15 Sean And as an audience member you go, Oh, that was a satisfying ending. 00:19:29:01 - 00:19:48:10 Andrew That's another reason why I wanted to read and discuss this letter, because one of the things that reminded me of a lot, the name that I jotted in the margins was John Ronayne. And that's not a name that's going to mean anything to most people, probably. But when I was in lovecraft talks in this about, you know, a story should be a slice of life, nothing more. 00:19:48:16 - 00:20:05:11 Andrew You know, you shouldn't worry about plot and all that stuff. And it reminded me of, you know, you and I both went to grad school in theater and we studied acting and I know I was surrounded by a lot of people who, you know, method acting and acting has to be realistic or it's not artistic. It's not true, right? 00:20:05:13 - 00:20:21:23 Andrew John Ronayne was an acting teacher that we had when I was in grad school. He was a visiting professor from England and we only had him for like a semester. But he pointed out that the most realistic performance in the world doesn't mean anything if the people in the back row can't hear it. 00:20:22:14 - 00:20:24:24 Sean But that's that's a terribly valid point. 00:20:24:24 - 00:20:37:08 Andrew Right. And, you know, we I remember, you know, we my fellow students and I scorned his attitude, as you know. Oh, that's just theatrical. That's not real. That's not genuine. But he was right. 00:20:37:11 - 00:20:38:16 Sean Sure. No, I'm. 00:20:38:20 - 00:20:48:18 Andrew And I think the same thing is, you know, true about literature and writing the most realistic slice of life story. It doesn't matter if no one wants to read it. 00:20:48:18 - 00:20:49:04 Sean Sure. 00:20:49:08 - 00:21:06:14 Andrew And it's also an issue, an issue that you and I wrestle with all the time when we try to do an adaptation of a Lovecraft story into a dramatic medium. And the rules for drama are different, and the structure for drama is different. But a dark adventure episode that didn't have a resolution, Sure. 00:21:07:08 - 00:21:34:12 Sean That captures atmosphere and captures setting and captures a slice of life, yet it doesn't capture the thrill of a story going on. A journey that has a beginning, a middle and an end is is interesting. And one of the other things that struck me is when he talks about slice of life, then he seems to make an important carve out, which is it's okay if you're going to fantasize, then then you're allowed to go somewhere else. 00:21:34:12 - 00:21:44:17 Sean It's like he gets a permission slip from Lord Dunsany to go with. It no longer needs to be a slice of life. It can be slice of something, some other life, some extraordinary. 00:21:44:17 - 00:21:57:13 Andrew Other, an imaginary life, which is weird, you know. He says it has to be life, either real or imaginary, but normally proportioned life. Well, who's to say what the normal proportions of an imaginary life are, Right? 00:21:57:13 - 00:22:21:13 Sean And in his own fantastical works, it's, you know, it's about kings and wizards and people who are very special abilities. And they're not just sitting around going, Oh, it's Thursday, I'm brewing a cup of wizard tea. You know, it's not that sort of slice of life, right? Some sort of extraordinary event in their life, which honestly, all stories worth telling have to you know, as actors, we look at it as stakes. 00:22:21:18 - 00:22:41:23 Sean There has to be something going on that makes this story worth telling. So it's one of the things that struck me about this letter. Is it him? He brings up the term bullshit and I think it's equal measures of he's absolutely right and it's utter bullshit. Yeah. And and that's that's one of the great paradoxes of dealing with Lovecraft. 00:22:42:08 - 00:22:53:19 Andrew And wrestling with Does he mean what I think he means when he says all this stuff? Because he seems to use a lot of words in a a private meaning that. 00:22:54:03 - 00:22:56:06 Sean Using that word, I do not think it means what you think. 00:22:56:09 - 00:23:00:18 Andrew Really. I think it means it doesn't mean what I think it means, that's for sure. Conceivable. 00:23:01:18 - 00:23:18:11 Sean Yeah, I had noted the pot calling the kettle black when he says what you must. Pulling off like a poison is the whole psychology of convention, verbal tradition, elegance, refinement, prettiness, purism, artificiality and kindred bullshit. Well, who? Let's look at his vocabulary. 00:23:18:17 - 00:23:21:10 Andrew Who's refined and prim and pure. Yeah, well. 00:23:21:10 - 00:23:36:06 Sean And he's such. Oh, yeah, He's so bound in by his own social conventions Of the kind of vocabulary a gentleman writer should embrace that. That I'm. I just don't know what to do with that sentence. 00:23:36:06 - 00:23:47:11 Andrew Yeah. At the end of the letter, you know, the reactionary coarseness in sound masculine thinkers and artists, you know, he so wants to be Hemingway apparently, or some kind of. 00:23:47:11 - 00:24:10:24 Sean And yet I wish he talked more about Hemingway because in some ways I think Hemingway's, you know, you compare the two guys vocabulary, you know, having just got the masculinity and the strength in the writing. But he doesn't have the floridity he doesn't have the vocabulary. He doesn't have the imaginative range that Lovecraft does. So yeah, it's and he's so rebuking Moe through this. 00:24:10:24 - 00:24:23:24 Sean But, but I just want to call Lovecraft out and go well let's let's talk about this story. Let's talk about this story. Let's talk about all these things that you wrote and what he owned up to them and go, Oh yeah, I didn't really follow my own advice there. 00:24:24:00 - 00:24:38:05 Andrew I think he probably would recognize his own failure to live up to the principles he's espousing. And if we had the first half of this letter, maybe it would make more sense to us than it does at the moment, because it does start in the middle of a lengthier conference. 00:24:38:05 - 00:24:39:06 Sean Yeah, So we're. 00:24:39:10 - 00:24:42:10 Andrew We're missing some context that might help us understand it, but. 00:24:42:17 - 00:24:44:15 Sean It sounds like you want to cut him the benefit of the doubt. 00:24:45:03 - 00:24:46:04 Andrew I do. I always. 00:24:46:04 - 00:24:47:10 Sean Do. How? You're so nice 00:24:47:10 - 00:24:50:23 Andrew Oh, no, I'm not that. 00:24:50:23 - 00:25:00:24 Sean Thanks for bringing into Moe. It's an interesting relationship between the guys and I suspect. Well, as we continue to Moe through the letters. Will I. Sorry couldn't couldn't. 00:25:00:24 - 00:25:02:06 Andrew Help and can't help yourself. 00:25:02:16 - 00:25:03:08 Sean It's shameful. 00:25:03:16 - 00:25:15:15 Andrew Yes. I think, you know clearly Moe was someone that Lovecraft felt free to let himself go around. So I expect you know, other mow letters will come up and they will probably be equally compelling and interesting and. 00:25:15:15 - 00:25:19:00 Sean They'll be even more compelling if. 00:25:19:09 - 00:25:21:21 Andrew He's lucky. I'm out of arm's reach, so I can't get lucky. 00:25:21:21 - 00:25:28:09 Sean There's a delete button or a thanks today to Arkham House for selected letters of H.P. Lovecraft. 00:25:28:12 - 00:25:31:15 Andrew You can learn more about them at ArkhamHouse.com 00:25:31:23 - 00:25:34:07 Sean I am your obedient servant, Sean Branney. 00:25:34:12 - 00:25:37:01 Andrew And I am cordially and respectfully yours Andrew Leman 00:25:37:01 - 00:25:41:19 Sean You've been listening to Voluminous the letters of H.P. Lovecraft. 00:25:41:19 - 00:25:46:04 Andrew If you've enjoyed the show, we'd appreciate it if you'd take a moment to post a review. 00:25:46:08 - 00:25:49:04 Sean Or even better, tell a friend or two about voluminous. 00:25:49:06 - 00:26:22:16 Andrew Brought to you by the H.P. Lovecraft Historical Society. Come check out all we have to offer at HPLHS.com