00:00:06:00 - 00:00:09:21 Andrew Welcome to Voluminous the letters of H.P. Lovecraft. 00:00:09:21 - 00:00:15:03 Sean In addition to classic works of Gothic horror fiction, HPL wrote thousands of fascinating letters. 00:00:15:10 - 00:00:19:13 Andrew In each episode, we'll read and discuss one of them. I'm Andrew Leman, and 00:00:19:13 - 00:00:23:08 Sean I'm Sean Branney. Together, we run the H.P. Lovecraft Historical Society. 00:00:24:00 - 00:00:33:02 Andrew Today, we're going to keep going on this letter that Lovecraft wrote on February 27th, 1931, to his dear friend Frank Belknap Long. 00:00:33:06 - 00:00:34:12 Sean Wait, you mean there's more ? 00:00:34:12 - 00:00:51:04 Andrew There's more, Sean. It's. We've heard two parts so far. We're going to hear another part today. And I want to say upfront that I found this part that we're going to read today, ugly and upsetting. And I think people might want to be forewarned that they might find it ugly and upsetting, too. 00:00:51:09 - 00:00:53:11 Sean Oh, well, that's nice of you to give them fair warning. 00:00:53:16 - 00:01:05:15 Andrew If we're going to read the letters of H.P. Lovecraft, eventually we're going to hit some ugly and upsetting stuff. So there's no point putting it off in as ugly and upsetting stuff goes. Believe me, he says more ugly and more upsetting stuff in other letters than he says... 00:01:05:22 - 00:01:09:08 Sean Let's think of this as an introduction to ugly and upsetting. He's into ugly. 00:01:09:08 - 00:01:11:03 Andrew And upsetting with with what you're about to. 00:01:11:03 - 00:01:18:11 Sean Hear. Well, no more beating about the bush. Let's let them hear part three of the Frank Belknap long letter. 00:01:18:15 - 00:01:40:17 Andrew That's the trouble with you, young man. You're one of those conventional "either...or" boys. If a man doesn't fit into one standardized intellectual book attitude, you try to fit him into another. If he isn't a cheap little surface exhibitionist, you think he must be a machine worshiper If he doesn't endorse the futile hysteria of the traditionalist, you think he must be a social collectivist. 00:01:40:24 - 00:02:03:24 Andrew These are the easy book taught attitudes, but the free original mind discerns the thousands of independent attitudes which exist all apart from such rubber stamp positions. Another trouble is that you raise up theoretical dilemmas of straw and moonshine, and outline fearsome imaginary plights as the only possible alternatives to the worn-out courses you would like to see followed. 00:02:04:09 - 00:02:36:06 Andrew You waste gallons of tears and hold cubic yards of breath over shifts of perspective that need occasion no serious mourning at all. Not but what many distinctly unwelcome trends are indeed visible, but that you over emphasise the universality of these trends and extend your lamentation to cover concurrent changes less open to regret. Of course I agree with you that the ideals of persons like Barnes, as related to society, are barbarous in the extreme and incapable of fulfilling the demands of civilized individuals. 00:02:36:20 - 00:03:09:16 Andrew But I think it almost childish to imagine that such ideals can ever animate any respectable part of the English race. You are more touched with the Democratic fallacy than I am, for you fancy that everyone will bow to the dominant policy of an inequalitarian social order. To me, this is frankly absurd. There will be a period of confusion and change, but unless the fabric blows up into an outright chaos of proletarian communism, (as I think the plutocrats will be too shrewd to allow, if doles and sops will tide things over) 00:03:09:22 - 00:03:33:15 Andrew There will be a fresh semi socialistic equilibrium in which the better classes will have a tremendous amount of leisure. To suppose that amidst this condition, the basic individualistic instincts of mammal primates can be paralyzed by a thin wash of idealistic collectivist hooey is to come perilously near falling for that hooey oneself. Insects are insects, but mammals are mammals. 00:03:34:01 - 00:03:57:02 Andrew Just watch the funded proprietor of amidst his new leisure and in spite of the utilitarian slogans through which he will have been waiting. Did you ever see a parvenu who didn't try to be a gentleman? Do you suppose that people collect antiques and read history for nothing? The chances are that our future plutocrats will try to cultivate all the aristocratic arts and succeed at a fair number of them. 00:03:57:09 - 00:04:23:01 Andrew The new culture will of course lack certain emotional overtones of the old culture, which depended on obsolete views and feelings. But as I said at the outset, there's no need of mourning about that too deeply. Of course, we shan't like to see the new architecture and poetry and painting which will appear; nor shall we perhaps like the possibly lessened share which these things will occupy in the physically speeded and active lives of our grandsons. 00:04:23:10 - 00:04:42:03 Andrew But after all, what the hell of it? Every age to its own gods, the Middle Ages had to sniveling long after real civilization faded. And the Renaissance gave the Moyenne age a parting kick in the behind. Better let nature take its course instead of trying to bolster up a set of moods which died with the beliefs that created them. 00:04:42:17 - 00:05:11:09 Andrew In many cases, the older values never were taken seriously by mental adults, and in other cases the change begins actually satisfying improvement rather than retrogression. We don't know yet what the machine will ultimately do. The worst thing about it is the suddenness with which its mass effects have overtaken certain phases of our culture. If the traditional regions can stave it off long enough, they may find a way to use its benefits without sacrificing too many of their independent folkways. 00:05:11:22 - 00:05:35:22 Andrew You moderns are all carried away by semi Marxian notions of complete economic determinism carried so far that you cannot envisage the normal reaction of repressed basic instinct against any set of really intolerable conditions. It is taking murder and blood to whip the individualism out of the poor dregs of a Soviet Russia from which most of the real brains and spirit have long been exiled. 00:05:36:02 - 00:06:01:04 Andrew This being so, what chance has peaceful mechanization to destroy our individualism in the absence of any prospect of exiling, slaughtering or other really rough stuff? Personally, I don't think it matters a goddamn how standardized and socialized the rabble get to be, or the moneyed bourgeois either, so long as a gentleman can live unmolested amidst his own thoughts and books and companions and rear his sons in the manner of gentlemen. 00:06:01:08 - 00:06:33:10 Andrew According to the sound residue of decorative principles. Modesty, honor, intellectual anesthetic, sincerity, courteous, non encroachment, uncommercial, commercial appreciation of life, etc., which survive from age to age as basic esthetic attributes, scarcely touchable by shifts of intellectual perspective and social environment. To imagine that any changes short of Bolshevik explosion could make such a life impossible of leading is to entertain a highly grotesque and exaggerated idea of what normal social and economic evolution is really like. 00:06:34:05 - 00:07:00:15 Andrew Still, no one wishes to deny that the process of transition is very unpleasant and discouraging and that the dominant utilitarian prejudgments of the present make detached seclusion the only logical place for an independent thinker. The point is that such seclusion is always open to us with no releasable potential threat of its ultimate denial. What in view of this is the row all about of the Randall arguments? 00:07:00:15 - 00:07:32:24 Andrew I will merely say that the attribution of many scientific concepts to mere rationalization is probably true so far as their origin goes, but that after a wide and exhaustive verification by a large number of varied and disinterested observers, we must accept them on a somewhat more solid basis, and b that the argument for the identity of science and machine collectivism is to a large extent invalidated by a consideration of the long history of pure cognition craving, beginning with feelings of miletus. 00:07:33:04 - 00:08:05:10 Andrew And continuing down the line to Einstein de Broglie and the astronomers at the Mount Wilson Observatory. Most of the modern concepts of what the machine age will demand seem to me highly artificial and strained. At worst, the machine society could not ask anything so ultimately degrading to the quintessential quality of humanity than an intellectual allegiance or pretense that allegiance to thoroughly exploded values which have become emotionally meaningless and even repugnant through their open and continual contravention of patently observable truths. 00:08:06:00 - 00:08:35:01 Andrew Such a degradation, imposing upon all really intelligent and honest men, a perpetual hypocrisy and ingrained mental dishonesty is that incredible and anti-social anachronism called the Pope ish Church. Suitable enough for the degraded Middle Ages and with modifications and evasions for the supine rabble of all ages, it is an insult to think of its connection with a modern gentleman to this disgusting defecation of dark age superstition. 00:08:35:05 - 00:09:06:04 Andrew Almost any social order short of communism would be preferable. The American capitalist order, based on Nordic Protestant ism is infinitely more respectable, even if less tawdry. Early, decorative Protestant emotions encourage manhood of the old Germanic type, whilst potpourri fosters everything effeminate and repugnant. But actual communism is worse than even potpourri. Hence, Mussolini, known to be a complete atheist and cynic is wise in using potpourri for the time being as a bulwark for his power. 00:09:06:17 - 00:09:35:14 Andrew It may be added that potpourri is not necessarily a drag on culture in nations whose psychology does not involve sincerity, honor and integrity. To the extent that our English psychology does, these decorative values bulk very low intellectually with the Latins, so that such races have a very natural bias toward the ancient faith. But Nordics are of a different cerebral and glandular build and cannot afford to evade and pretend beyond certain limits with us. 00:09:35:15 - 00:10:10:22 Andrew Saddam lie is a damn lie, and we have an inability to hedge around such things. An inability forming the hallmark of a haughty and world conquering race. An unbroken race like the Romans, like him or not. We have to be honest. And even Jellicle Protestantism is the only honest religion ever professed by the occidental world since the altars of our Saxon fathers were swept away by the sniveling priests of dark age Papists, only the real Protestants, best exemplified by the Puritans of the Massachusetts Bay, ever attempted to carry out. 00:10:10:22 - 00:10:35:01 Andrew In fact, what every so-called Christian, by virtue of the silly dog matter he swallows, nominally believes himself commanded to carry out all of the dogs flinch and shirk, except the English Puritan, and he tries to do as he believes. Read the Articles of Faith of the Old Congregational Church in Cotton Mather's magnolia and correlated with the history of the tight lipped fanatics of the Bay. 00:10:35:07 - 00:11:01:01 Andrew They formed the reductio ad absurdum of all religion, but by God, they were honest before themselves and before the cosmos. True Englishmen by God, sir. The breed before whom your little papists cringe. Kobach Wolf, the heights of Abraham. God save the King. If you are not prepared to do what your Bible says, then get out from behind the skirts of the Holy Virgin and confess your honest paganism like a man. 00:11:01:21 - 00:11:26:13 Andrew The true English mind has no use for duplicity and evasion. We were good Papists in the Middle Ages when we had nothing else to believe. But as soon as we began to awaken to a sense of consistency, we recognized the fetid, putrid essence of the Romans. Or we who had to. Wycliffe did not need a Luther. And it is folly to say that Henry the Eighth did more than accelerated change, which had been inevitable for two centuries. 00:11:27:01 - 00:11:51:02 Andrew Even amidst our theistic delusions, we could recognize the vile hypocrisy of popes, pretense and corruption. And the reconcilable breaches of sane English is or isn't ness involved in the filthy groveling of a Catholic Lord? It is possible, of course, that the Rome ish church could have reformed from within, as indeed it has since done to some extent. But even so, it was not the church for blunt, honest Englishmen. 00:11:51:15 - 00:12:15:06 Andrew What happened was for the best, just as it is now, best that we shed our last theistic pretenses in the light of what we have come to know and feel. Great Catholic tradition indeed. Pardon my exit for purposes of regurgitation. However, I fully recognize the Rome ish Church's purely esthetic appeal and have no quarrel with it as long as it does not pretend to be a serious survival. 00:12:15:19 - 00:12:43:08 Andrew Admittedly, the Puritans dispensed with many pleasing adornments which could have been retained without loss of force or honesty, so that after all, I fancy the good old Church of England in a broad, low form opposite to the silly Anglo Catholic High Churchery is the best of all old St Johns in Providence. The place with the hidden hillside churchyard is about the sort of thing I'd attend if I swallowed any supernaturalism that used to be Ancient King's church. 00:12:43:08 - 00:12:48:24 Andrew Founded in 1723. Present Edifice 1809 God Save the King. 00:12:50:14 - 00:12:51:19 Sean So, Andrew. 00:12:51:20 - 00:12:52:05 Andrew Yes? 00:12:52:14 - 00:12:54:09 Sean You picked this letter? 00:12:54:09 - 00:13:05:04 Andrew I did pick this letter in my defense. When I picked it, I found it very, very interesting. Now that I sit here having to talk about it, I'm having some second thoughts. 00:13:05:06 - 00:13:27:12 Sean Oh, I'm actually kind of pleased to hear that. Back when we did, I think our very first episode, you had, you know, brought up this notion of accepting Lovecraft, warts and all. And this is certainly a very warty letter. And while some of the some of the previous letters we've read have shown him in a light, which makes him more likable and charming, Uncle Howard and boy, I had a tough time with this. 00:13:27:12 - 00:13:32:17 Sean And if you were if you didn't know I was going to look askance. 00:13:32:17 - 00:13:39:03 Andrew At you know, I absolutely had a hard time with this letter. But that's, you know, part of the reason for reading it and talking about it, I think. 00:13:39:04 - 00:13:55:04 Sean Of course. Yeah. We're not here to paint a rosy picture of H.P. Lovecraft or make the man out to be anything other than what he was. Quite to the contrary, I think this whole project is really about helping fans of his literary work come to understand him better as a human being. 00:13:55:04 - 00:13:58:11 Andrew And I mean, I want to understand it better as a human being. 00:13:58:11 - 00:14:01:07 Sean Sure. And he as like human beings. He's complex and. 00:14:01:07 - 00:14:04:01 Andrew Flawed and full of inherent contradictions. 00:14:04:07 - 00:14:04:22 Sean And this is. 00:14:05:03 - 00:14:05:16 Andrew This just. 00:14:05:16 - 00:14:06:24 Sean Screams as part. 00:14:06:24 - 00:14:08:07 Andrew Three is especially. 00:14:08:14 - 00:14:15:21 Sean Yeah, hypocrisy and self-contradiction. But okay, well, let's put on our galoshes and wade into this thing. 00:14:15:22 - 00:14:25:20 Andrew All right. Well, this in this part, he's he's obviously tackling politics and religion, too. Notoriously difficult and dicey subjects to discuss. 00:14:25:20 - 00:14:27:01 Sean Crowd pleasers all the time. 00:14:27:01 - 00:14:49:01 Andrew Crowd pleasers. You can't go wrong. First of all, I found it important to remind myself that, hey, it's being written in 1931. The depth of the Depression. Herbert Hoover is president. Fascism is on the rise. It's already taken over Italy. It's well on its way to take over Germany. It's a very turbulent, difficult period of 20th century history. 00:14:49:05 - 00:15:07:01 Sean Sure. And I think also at the outset, I want to come back around to acknowledge that this is a piece of personal communication. This is between Howard and Frank. And this is not him writing a letter to the editor of The New York Times or some other public forum. This is a one on one between me and my friend. 00:15:07:15 - 00:15:08:16 Sean It's clearly a conversation. 00:15:08:19 - 00:15:13:11 Andrew A close friend with whom he felt comfortable saying some very inflammatory things. 00:15:13:11 - 00:15:14:08 Sean Yeah, absolutely. 00:15:14:08 - 00:15:36:02 Andrew And I also tried to remind myself, as I was reading that in general, they're talking about art. They're talking about when Lovecraft in this letter, I think is talking about culture. He's talking about art. He's not necessarily politics comes into it. Religion comes into it. But the the topic of the letter is, you know, started out being supernatural horror literature. 00:15:36:09 - 00:15:41:06 Andrew And, you know, he's going all over the road here. But ultimately what they're talking about is art. 00:15:41:07 - 00:15:51:05 Sean Right. Art is the catalyst for the entire conversation. And ultimately where he starts and where he comes back around you in the end. But yeah, but certainly he goes other he. 00:15:51:05 - 00:15:59:02 Andrew Goes other places. And one of the reasons I found it fascinating while I was reading it is how, how terrifyingly it reminds me of some current events. 00:15:59:03 - 00:16:00:06 Sean Well, you know, current. 00:16:00:06 - 00:16:01:05 Andrew Personalities. 00:16:01:07 - 00:16:03:13 Sean Look at history and nothing, nothing ever changes. 00:16:03:15 - 00:16:08:12 Andrew Yeah, we don't have the letter that long wrote to Lovecraft, to which this is a response. 00:16:08:13 - 00:16:14:24 Sean Boy, I wish we did, too, because I think it would really it would really help us contextualize a lot of the points Lovecraft makes. 00:16:14:24 - 00:16:38:00 Andrew But I'm kind of getting the feeling and maybe this is wishful thinking on my part, but I kind of get the feeling that longs freaking out about the current state of affairs. And Lovecraft is actually trying to calm him down by by saying, you know, you're you're getting too hysterical. These changes. They are upsetting. It is discouraging. But let nature take its course. 00:16:38:00 - 00:17:08:02 Andrew We don't yet know what's going to happen. You're you might be letting yourself get carried away with fear and panic. And if that's what he's saying, I hope he says it to me, because I certainly you know, I look around the world today and it's hard not to be overcome by fear and panic. And and it's helpful, I think, sometimes to remember that the world has gone through these kinds of horrible cataclysmic changes and and some times, of course, they're horrible, but sometimes we over panic. 00:17:08:06 - 00:17:24:24 Sean Yeah, I guess I certainly didn't find Lovecraft's continual upbraiding of long comforting in the light of those things. Perhaps that's how love these points of view is, how Lovecraft comforted himself. But maybe. 00:17:24:24 - 00:17:26:01 Andrew Can't imagine. 00:17:26:01 - 00:17:41:04 Sean Frank Long have read this and felt any better about the impending doom of the 1930 is going Oh well you know in the compared to the vastness of cosmic space, it's okay compared to astronomical time. It's okay. 00:17:41:06 - 00:17:43:14 Andrew It's bedside manner leaves a lot to be desired. 00:17:43:14 - 00:18:06:18 Sean Yeah, it's a pretty lame job of providing comfort, if that's what the intent was, because it's there's a whole lot of flogging that comes along with that. Yeah, but I don't disagree with. I think the fundamental intent of the letter is to say these things that you're getting upset about. You're it's childish to get upset about them because a a wonderful man like me with great cosmic imagination will not be trifled by. 00:18:06:22 - 00:18:09:07 Sean Things like the impending World War. 00:18:09:08 - 00:18:11:01 Andrew True. I get it. I get. 00:18:11:01 - 00:18:19:24 Sean It. Okay. Yeah. And I'm not here to abridge you about this. I find you're not entirely the criminal here. You just brought this letter to our attention. Sorry, but you didn't write it, so I. 00:18:19:24 - 00:18:36:15 Andrew Didn't write it. I did like, I mean, there are a couple of little nuggets in here that do make me feel a little bit better. Like when he says, Of course, I agree with you that the ideals of persons like Barnes are barbaric and in the extreme and incapable. I mean, he Lovecraft knows that these things are bad. 00:18:36:15 - 00:18:37:17 Sean Yes. Yes, he does. 00:18:37:17 - 00:18:49:11 Andrew At least he's not saying Barnes is right. He acknowledges that this is all very upsetting and then tries to mitigate how upsetting it is by offering a different point of view. 00:18:49:11 - 00:19:09:03 Sean Well, he doesn't seem that upset by upset, I would say, is is completely an erroneous characterization of him. I think I think that might be something you're putting on him to to modify it, because I think part of what he's saying is, you know, this if you put it in context, this isn't all this bad thing is not all that bad because of X, Y and Z. 00:19:09:03 - 00:19:23:00 Sean But you certainly don't see him going. This is an outrage. This is appalling. I am morally offended by X. He's like, you know, oh, don't don't worry, it's okay. Just widen. Widen the scope of your vision and you will be troubled less. That's what I got from it. 00:19:23:04 - 00:19:29:13 Andrew Yeah. I'm not saying Lovecraft himself finds it upsetting. I'm saying, okay, he can see that it is upsetting to other people. 00:19:29:13 - 00:19:38:13 Sean If you write, if somebody else is upset by it, well, they need only think about the vastness of cosmic space and they'll sleep soundly at night. Oh, boy. 00:19:38:19 - 00:19:48:18 Andrew About the middle of of this part. They he does get into he says we don't know yet what the machine will ultimately do. And I think when he says the machine, he means technology in general. 00:19:48:23 - 00:20:09:08 Sean That was my read of sort of in commercialized, you know, as we were talking about science in the earlier part of this letter. Right. The machine is commercialized science and industrialization. And I think the social conformity that those processes bring with them was something I think he found very disagreeable all. And I think that was the rise of the machine. 00:20:09:08 - 00:20:11:18 Sean And boy, would he be horrified by the modern age. 00:20:11:18 - 00:20:25:10 Andrew Well, that's what I was going to get into. You know, he he says, you know, if the traditional regions can staved off long enough, they may find a way to use its benefits without sacrificing. And he was wrong. It yeah, they didn't figure that out. 00:20:25:15 - 00:20:26:01 Sean They didn't. 00:20:26:01 - 00:20:36:10 Andrew And you know the machine has only become more has only sped everything up, more alienated us, more turned humanity itself upside down, more. 00:20:36:10 - 00:21:11:13 Sean And yet I think it's unfair to look at it purely from that point of view, because I think most people would say the Internet's a fairly wonderful thing that, you know, we we have we have paid a price for the technology we've acquired, and we're only just beginning to have the Vegas understanding of what that price is. And yet, you know, a world I it crossed my mind thinking about the machine as I used the machine to try and look up all the footnotes and references I needed to actually understand all the points that love graphs, making sure there's a certain degree of irony. 00:21:11:13 - 00:21:20:17 Andrew In that, you know, every every thing that humanity produces can be used for good or for ill. And it's always a race to see which will come out on top. 00:21:20:17 - 00:21:41:13 Sean Well, and I think it's always a mixed bag. That's the nature of of progress as we you know, you can end World War Two by dropping an atomic bomb and go it's a wonderful thing because we ended World War two and you go it's a horrific thing because we you know, we killed more people faster than never has happened in the history of humankind. 00:21:41:13 - 00:21:49:18 Andrew And now we've you know, we've opened the Pandora's box. Now everyone's going to want it in every war by dropping an atomic bomb and build bigger and better atomic bombs. And here we. 00:21:49:18 - 00:22:17:01 Sean Are. Now, that's progress for you. Just just after that, a sentence that struck me was Lovecraft says at worst, a machine society could not ask anything so ultimately degrading to the quintessential quality of humanity than an intellectual allegiance or pretense and allegiance to thoroughly exploded values which have become emotionally meaningless and even repugnant through their open and continual contravene chain of patently observable truths. 00:22:17:14 - 00:22:42:20 Sean I thought, Man, okay, it's a it's a long, a complicated sentence. By the end of the day, in the era of alternative facts, you know, we're going to you know, we live in a time where people are being asked to subscribe to alternative facts and going, okay, we presented you with facts, and those facts are disagreeable. So here's new facts that we've made that contravene the first facts that are actually objective. 00:22:42:20 - 00:22:51:12 Sean And and, you know, tangible pick whichever one suits you actually don't even pick whichever one suit you pick. Whichever one we're telling you to pick. 00:22:51:13 - 00:22:59:18 Andrew Is the one that suits me. Yeah. It's, you know. Wow. And that's the you can either choose to believe it or you can pretend to believe it. Just don't rock the boat. 00:22:59:18 - 00:23:09:02 Sean Right Don't. Don't push back against it. Yeah, I thought that was also disturbing writing and yeah, evocative of 90 years later. 00:23:09:23 - 00:23:32:16 Andrew Before we move on down further, I just want to mention, he says he mentions the Mount Wilson Observatory. Sure. Which is a you know, it's here in Southern California. It was at the time in 1931 when Lovecraft wrote the letter. It had the two biggest telescopes in the world. It's where Edwin Hubble discovered that the universe is expanding and many other amazing astronomical. 00:23:32:20 - 00:23:38:06 Sean Is some of the top astronomers that he refers to in this letter and others were working up at Mount Wilson. And there's a. 00:23:38:06 - 00:23:41:19 Andrew There's a place here in Los Angeles called the Museum of Jurassic Technology. 00:23:41:22 - 00:23:44:03 Sean Oh, tell people about that. I think they'd find it interesting. 00:23:44:07 - 00:23:48:06 Andrew It is an it is a me. It's it's a museum. And yet it's also. 00:23:48:10 - 00:23:49:19 Sean Almost an art installation. 00:23:49:19 - 00:24:16:05 Andrew Art installation in the form of a museum. Kind of it's a it's an amazing place that if you have a chance to go visit the Museum of Jurassic Technology, you absolutely should take advantage. But one of their standing exhibits is is about the Mount Wilson Observatory and specifically about letters that were sent to the scientists who worked at the Mount Wilson Observatory, and they've published a collection of them called No One may Ever Have the Same Knowledge Again. 00:24:16:20 - 00:24:36:05 Andrew And it's a fact that all these letters were written about the same time as this letter between 1915 and 1935 or thereabouts, And it's just letters from common everyday people writing to the experts at Mount Wilson, either seeking information or offering their own insane alternative theories. 00:24:36:05 - 00:24:39:09 Sean Of of the universe, more alternative facts. 00:24:39:19 - 00:24:46:18 Andrew It really is, though, a delightful and amazing collection of letters. And you can you can get it at the museum gift shop. 00:24:46:19 - 00:24:48:21 Sean Is it is it still in print? Can you get it anywhere else? 00:24:48:21 - 00:24:58:23 Andrew I checked last night. I don't think you can get it anywhere but their gift shop. But you can get it through their gift shop and it's. It's def. We have a copy here at headquarters and it's a delightful it's a delightful book. 00:24:59:01 - 00:25:24:13 Sean Then just use a computer. Okay. Well, yeah, then. Then it's really at this point, the letter starts to take an uglier turn and a twofold thing because it. He moves into his assault on potpourri. Yeah. Boy, Which is an assault on potpourri, the likes of which we haven't heard since, you know, the, the Reformation. 00:25:24:19 - 00:25:26:16 Andrew And it seems to come out of nowhere. 00:25:26:18 - 00:25:27:18 Sean It does. It does. 00:25:27:24 - 00:25:28:20 Andrew Come out of. 00:25:28:20 - 00:25:42:02 Sean Nowhere. And curiously aggressive, too. I know there are a lot of forms of Lovecraft's either racism or xenophobia or just not liking of the other, which I have heard before. But this is his most vigorous anti-Catholic tirade I have run into. 00:25:42:05 - 00:25:46:12 Andrew And here that's one of the reasons why this letter sort of stopped me in my tracks like, holy mackerel. 00:25:46:12 - 00:26:22:00 Sean This is brutal. Yeah. And and it made me wonder how indicative of a New England Protestant of the 1920s is in terms of thinking about Catholics. Because I think, yeah, you know, largely as through the evolution of the 20th century, you know, a lot of groups that have been vilified, we've collectively sort of gotten around and and, you know, some a lot of them aren't aren't either vilified or certainly not to the degree they were back then, you know, reading terms like Vagos and things that have just, you know, fallen completely away. 00:26:22:13 - 00:26:45:16 Sean And so sort of anti-Catholicism is is as just a trait is something I had not really given much thought with. And I wondered how representative of his neighbors. Yeah those point of views might be or how much they're something deeply ingrained in him. And what's fueling that. Most of the people I know have the biggest issues with the Catholic Church are all ex Catholics, and that's definitely not Howard, which is me. 00:26:45:16 - 00:27:06:06 Andrew I mean, I was raised a Catholic. I was an altar boy, for heaven's sake, in grade school. I was a good Catholic. I'm not anymore. And I you know, religion, of course, is a very tricky thing because it's deeply personal to some people. And I have absolutely no I have no reason to question any individual person's sincere belief in religion. 00:27:06:09 - 00:27:14:08 Andrew What I find myself questioning, having grown up Catholic is the institution itself. Catholicism, not Catholics. 00:27:14:08 - 00:27:18:00 Sean Sure how the institution carries out its its. 00:27:18:00 - 00:27:24:11 Andrew Because we all have to face this. I mean, the Catholic Church has perpetrated some pretty horrible, horrible stuff. 00:27:24:21 - 00:27:25:24 Sean Well, they had the Inquisition. 00:27:26:01 - 00:27:26:23 Andrew Then, you know. 00:27:27:02 - 00:27:28:15 Sean And it just got worse after. 00:27:28:15 - 00:27:49:19 Andrew The more recent, you know, sexual abuse scandals and all kinds of stuff. So I can also understand anybody who thinks the Catholic Church is terrible. I can understand both sides. But it's never religion has never been particularly personal to me. And I mean, I know you have relatives in Northern Ireland for whom the difference between Catholic and Protestant is literally a life and death difference. 00:27:49:24 - 00:28:12:23 Sean Well, that's interesting because I thought about them. Some of my family comes from from Northern Ireland. And it's not, though, the whole Northern Irish thing is not about religion at all. It's about politics. And it just happens to be that the two sides in a political conflict happen. The Northern Irish War is about religion in the same way the Vietnam War was about religion. 00:28:13:03 - 00:28:47:22 Sean You had Christians fighting Buddhists, but they're not fighting about that. That just happens to be where the sides are drawn. In Northern Ireland, it's about people who want a 32 county United Republic of Ireland again, and people who believe that Northern Ireland should remain part of the UK. And it just happens that through the history those two sides get delineated on religious grounds because generally the people who are British loyalists tend to be Protestants and generally the people who tend to be Irish Republicans tend to be Catholics. 00:28:47:22 - 00:29:15:09 Sean But it's not about your religion as bad or I'm trying to convert you, it's that you are the other. In our political conflict. And and way that that crossed my mind because of the vitriol that we're seeing here from Lovecraft, who I just can't see how, you know, he can dismiss Catholicism for as intellectual absurdity. But but how it becomes so personal for him is really fascinating because he's. 00:29:15:13 - 00:29:20:06 Andrew Clearly he's very vehement about, yeah, Catholicism. 00:29:20:06 - 00:29:35:23 Sean And I was surprised that I hadn't heard or seen that other places in his writing, apart from, you know, something like The Hunter, the Dark, where he's, you know, dismissive of the Catholics. But I always took that as being dismissive of them because they were Italian, they were foreigners, they were other. Yeah. You know, which is at least a side of Lovecraft. 00:29:35:23 - 00:29:39:05 Sean I'm more used to. Yeah. Than, than this anti-Catholic thing. 00:29:39:06 - 00:29:55:11 Andrew Yeah. He he says Quebec wolf the heights of Abraham God save the king. And I had to look that up to understand what he was referring to there. And it's it's a battle from the French and Indian War in which the Protestants beat the Catholics. And it was like the turning point of the French and Indian War. 00:29:55:12 - 00:30:17:22 Sean Well, and I'd like to digress a little bit. Perhaps it's a more positive and interesting side of of part three of the long letter is his utter fascination with Quebec. And I've been up to Quebec City, actually, I'm going to be going back up there here in only about two months and visiting it. It's easy to see why it's the kind of town that Lovecraft would totally dig. 00:30:18:03 - 00:30:34:16 Sean A lot of people think he didn't travel, which is just a misconception because actually he got around a fair bit, mostly up and down the eastern seaboard of the United States. But he did leave the U.S. by going up to to visit Quebec. Now, why did he end up in Quebec City? Well, that's sort of an interesting thing. 00:30:34:16 - 00:30:55:04 Sean He found a discount train fare, a $12 excursion fare that would take him from Providence, a round trip all the way up to Quebec City and back. So on August 30th of 1930. So this is, you know what, nine months before this letter is written, he went up there. He only spent three days in Quebec City on his first visit. 00:30:55:15 - 00:31:16:12 Sean But he loved the place and he loved the place, of course, because it's certainly in the old town of Quebec City. It's like going back in time because a lot of the architecture from that colonial era is still there and in place. And little, you know, the Boston I think that Lovecraft cherishes and that only exists in his imagination. 00:31:16:14 - 00:31:37:23 Sean Buildings like that still actually exist in Quebec City. So he, after visiting, he ended up writing this essay to Quebec in the Stars, and it's the longest single thing that Lovecraft ever wrote. It is a time and a half as again, as long as the case of Charles Dexter Ward. Wow. And he was. 00:31:37:23 - 00:31:39:14 Andrew Based on three days in Quebec. 00:31:39:14 - 00:32:01:11 Sean Well, he went back to two more times. But but never for more. The never for more than I don't think three days. Three days is the longest period of time he spent there. He never seemed to be bothered by the French. The fact it's a francophone place and Catholic as well. But through this battle with Wolff on the plains of Abraham, which are just outside of Quebec City. 00:32:01:11 - 00:32:20:10 Sean So I think he went there in person. It's it's a it's walking distance from from downtown Quebec City demonstrates that, you know, it's that great moment of victory where in the history of Canada is it going to be a French Catholic nation or is it going to be a British Protestant nation? Oh, by God, God save the king. 00:32:20:10 - 00:32:44:00 Sean Right? It ends up as we want. So Canada ends up being liberated from the evil French Catholics and put in the hands of the God fearing British Protestants the way Howard would have it be. So one last interesting thing about this essay to come back in the Stars is he never published it. He never tried to have it published, and apparently he never showed it to anyone. 00:32:44:10 - 00:33:11:09 Sean And it's an exhaustive, detailed travelog It's got maps and drawings and sketches of rooftops. It's a really quite an interesting and a huge amount of effort that went into it. And apparently it was mostly for him. Wow. Yeah, it's a really interesting and it's an interesting read. It's back in print now. L Sprague de Camp first did a he edited and put together a hardback book version of it, which is pretty hard to find these days. 00:33:11:16 - 00:33:28:19 Sean But the hippocampus press guys have also done in addition to publishing the letters, they've reproduced a lot of Lovecraft's essays, and that's in their Volume four, which covers of Lovecraft's travel essays, which he wrote about most of the places he visited, but not to the same length as he did about Quebec. 00:33:28:19 - 00:33:42:22 Andrew I wonder. I mean, obviously he went there. Do you suppose to gather enough material to write that much about Quebec in three days? Did he like interview everybody when he was there? Did he do his research after he got home? You know, we gathered the information. Yeah. 00:33:42:22 - 00:33:55:22 Sean The thinking seems to be that, you know, he he saw as much as he could while he was there, but that most of it was written when he was back home and probably using other reference books that probably he was getting from the library. Well. 00:33:56:04 - 00:34:01:17 Andrew Anyway, and thank you for bringing thank you for bringing that nice bit in because because yeah, I. 00:34:01:17 - 00:34:09:21 Sean Was frankly, I was happy to see it. I was like, oh, here's something we can talk about. Instead of the wanton, the self-congratulatory racism or the or. 00:34:09:21 - 00:34:18:21 Andrew The by the way, racism, when he says, you know, Catholic is suitable for the Latins because they don't value honesty and integrity as much as English people do. 00:34:18:21 - 00:34:50:13 Sean Jeez, you know there's the self-aggrandizing he's yeah, it's so it's so sort of off the cuff that how wonderful the Nordic and Aryan races are and how loathsome and lazy the Latin races are. It's like, oh, you know. Howard Yeah. At one point in the margin I just wrote Shut up with a exclamation point next to it when he said Nordics are of a different cerebral and glandular build, I was like, What the hell do you know about the glandular builds of Nordics? 00:34:50:13 - 00:35:07:04 Andrew Lovecraft Yeah, hush. Amen. And in the in the in the margins of my page here, I wrote times have changed when he talks about how, you know, evangelical Protestantism is the only honest religion ever in practice. 00:35:07:04 - 00:35:07:12 Sean Yeah. 00:35:07:15 - 00:35:15:03 Andrew In the auction, it's like, oh, boy, oh boy. I wonder what he would think of, you know, his beloved Protestantism in the age of hucksters. 00:35:15:03 - 00:35:16:21 Sean And megachurches, megachurches. 00:35:16:21 - 00:35:17:05 Andrew And all that. 00:35:17:05 - 00:35:35:06 Sean Stuff. Yeah, I would say, you know, he's he's so eager to call out hokum. Yeah, that one would think that the megachurches and the the was they call that the gospel of the gospel of self-enrichment, the gospel of prosperity, gospel. The wood just, you know, pushes buttons. One would think. 00:35:35:10 - 00:35:55:17 Andrew Although to I don't know if it's fair or not, but I'm going to say to be fair. And then I rethought fair. He does cite, you know, the Puritans, as you know, he acknowledges they were honest. They were also the reductio ad absurdum of religion. Right. Looks like if you're honest, then you either have to be a Puritan or shut up, basically, is what he's saying. 00:35:55:20 - 00:36:08:10 Andrew If you're not prepared to go all the way right, then you are revealing yourself as a liar. And that is I kind of agree with that. I mean, I, I don't like the Puritans. 00:36:08:10 - 00:36:16:15 Sean Well, yeah, they're they're insane, too, but. Right. They are kind of practicing what they preach in a way, but that still doesn't make them respectable. 00:36:16:15 - 00:36:23:14 Andrew They ought to preach something else and practice. That would be my suggestion. I think that's thought I did. 00:36:23:15 - 00:36:37:07 Sean I did want to point out the the lovely phrase when he's he's yapping about the great Catholic tradition. Indeed. And then he says, pardon my exit for purposes of regurgitation. That's when he can't bring himself to just write Barf. 00:36:38:05 - 00:36:42:07 Andrew Yeah. Wycliffe I had you ever have you ever heard of Wycliffe before? 00:36:42:07 - 00:36:58:08 Sean I didn't. And Wycliffe John Wycliffe was an interesting guy because I realize that kind of thinking came as early as he did. He was a an essentially a pre Protestant way back in the 14th century. Yeah. And basically, you know, he. 00:36:58:15 - 00:37:01:12 Andrew He's the first guy to translate the Bible from Latin into English. 00:37:01:12 - 00:37:04:14 Sean Right. Which was, of course, at the time a completely heretical. 00:37:04:14 - 00:37:08:21 Andrew Revolutionary thing to do. Yeah. I want to let ordinary people read the Bible. That's not. 00:37:08:21 - 00:37:23:02 Sean Allowed. Right. And people continue to be executed for that through the through the 1500s. So and then then finally, it's King James, the first who comes out with the King James Bible, which then becomes an official state sanctioned English language Bible. 00:37:23:02 - 00:37:24:21 Andrew And that's Lovecraft's style guide. 00:37:25:20 - 00:37:26:21 Sean Yeah, absolutely. 00:37:27:19 - 00:37:40:07 Andrew So, yeah, much as I, you know, was upset by lots of this letter, I did find it fascinating. And if our mission is to try to understand him better, I think it is well worth having read. 00:37:40:13 - 00:38:20:13 Sean Sure. And, you know, I walk away from it going, wow, he has a vitriolic loathing of Catholicism. Yeah. And, you know, certainly his his knee jerk reaction to the fact that Nordics and Aryans are wonderful all from a molecular level on up and and that, you know, really everybody who's not like him is lesser man. And that's, you know, it's a fundamental building block of his persona and I wish it were not so yeah and yet it is so and him being who he is made him the man who who wrote the literature, which I like. 00:38:21:03 - 00:38:42:02 Sean So, so I'm, you know, I don't I personally don't want to live in a I have a deluded concept of Lovecraft and who he was. And you know, I think it's good for us to share with other people who are interested in Lovecraft going, Hey, this is what he's writing when he's talking to his friends. Yeah, I think this is a pretty clear view of the actual personal beliefs he held. 00:38:42:10 - 00:38:43:23 Sean Deal with them, as you. 00:38:43:23 - 00:39:03:09 Andrew Will, and also remembering, as we said at the beginning, that this is a this is a personal letter written to a specific individual. It's Lovecraft. He may be mortified that we're reading it and judging him based on, you know, what he says in this letter, given that, as we also have said, he will contradict himself in other letters and. 00:39:03:09 - 00:39:17:16 Andrew You know, he is a complicated person like all people. He is a complicated person. And the vitriol he expresses today him, you know, is indicative of how he felt. But he also is capable of modification. We'll find out. Yeah, we'll read more letters. 00:39:17:16 - 00:39:19:19 Sean Yeah, well, we're suffering from towards the end with a lot. 00:39:19:20 - 00:39:20:16 Andrew More of this letter. 00:39:21:07 - 00:39:57:01 Sean Boy. Well, we one last topic on bring up. I don't know if will necessarily keep it in the in this episode, but I often hear we have to discuss racism being in the Lovecraft business. We have to discuss racism with with both fans and people who just, you know, loathe Lovecraft because of his his personal views. And there is a subset of fans who go, Oh, yeah, he was racist when he was younger, but he outgrew that and and became a nice man by the time he died, you know, And I think as we look at more letters from late in his life, I think they'll be revealing. 00:39:57:01 - 00:40:20:06 Sean But on the whole, you know, he's he's pretty far into his life at this point. And he's he's pretty inured in his thinking here. So I think that that simple Dickensian Christmas Carol sort of thing that Lovecraft was a bitter racist. And yeah, then somehow he got over it isn't something that anybody should be hoping will be borne out by the facts. 00:40:20:06 - 00:40:25:14 Sean I think he carried some degree of it. Yeah. Right into the grave with him. 00:40:26:02 - 00:40:32:06 Andrew Yeah. I think you're probably right in the next part, which I think will be the last part of this particular letter. 00:40:32:06 - 00:40:33:19 Sean Thank you. Thank you. God. 00:40:35:00 - 00:40:42:03 Andrew Lovecraft is going to get into history and art, so that'll be a little less upsetting, I think. 00:40:42:18 - 00:40:44:12 Sean Unless you're an artist or historian. 00:40:45:02 - 00:40:56:11 Andrew In which case, buckle up. We're going to be a bumpy ride. Our thanks today, Arkham House, for making this and many other letters available in selected letters. 00:40:56:11 - 00:41:04:02 Sean And our friends over at Hippocampus Press, who have republished the essays of H.P. Lovecraft, including his travel essays to come back in the stars. 00:41:04:02 - 00:41:07:11 Andrew You can find Arkham House online at ArkhamHouse.com and 00:41:07:11 - 00:41:11:07 Sean The hippocampus press folks are at hippocampuspress.com. 00:41:11:07 - 00:41:14:01 Andrew I'm your obedient servant, Andrew Leman, and. 00:41:14:01 - 00:41:15:24 Sean I am cordially and respectfully yours. 00:41:16:04 - 00:41:20:15 Andrew Sean Branney, You've been listening to voluminous the letters of H.P. Lovecraft. 00:41:20:19 - 00:41:24:00 Sean If you've enjoyed the show, please take a moment and leave a review. 00:41:24:07 - 00:41:29:24 Andrew Or write a kind, gentle, supportive letter to a friend telling them all about voluminous. 00:41:29:24 - 00:42:01:23 Sean Brought to you by the H.P. Lovecraft Historical Society. Come check out all we have to offer at HPLHS.org.